The human aspect of exoskeletons – Minerva Pillai on the future of work

00:00:00: One of the first things that we have to tell a lot of workers is that these exoskeletons, they're not making you Iron Man.

00:00:08: Unfortunately.

00:00:10: One day, one day we'll get there.

00:00:37: And today I want to focus on occupational exoskeletons.

00:00:42: And I'm looking forward to my guest, Minerva Pillai.

00:00:46: She is a mechanical engineer, holds a PhD from University of California, Berkeley.

00:00:55: And she's co-founder and head of development at suit X. We'll speak about that.

00:01:01: First of all, Minerva, lovely to have you on the show.

00:01:05: Thank you for having me.

00:01:06: I am excited to speak to you today.

00:01:08: Yes.

00:01:09: So am I. Well, if we look into your focus, this is people just imagine lifting boxes all day tools, working, finishing your shift with enough energy left for life after work is sometimes difficult in some jobs.

00:01:30: And well, you will change that with many people who suddenly come home, they lifted tons and they are very relaxed.

00:01:42: Exoskeletons designed to reduce workplace strain and injuries.

00:01:48: That's our topic.

00:01:49: Minerva, first of all, I would like to focus on the start, some personal aspects.

00:01:57: So you, first of all, you studied mechanical engineering at Berkeley.

00:02:02: Yes.

00:02:03: What brought you into the field of exoskeletons?

00:02:06: So I, as you said, I studied in the University of California Berkeley as a mechanical engineer, but there is a lab at the university and the the director is Dr.

00:02:20: Humayun Kazaruni.

00:02:22: And he's actually the person who made the first, world's first autonomous exoskeleton in the early two thousands.

00:02:30: And so, you know, when I was an undergrad, I actually had the privilege of joining his lab, and then I stayed through my PhD.

00:02:38: And during that journey, I actually, you know, While in the early two thousands, because that's where the money was, it was all about military exos.

00:02:49: But then by the time I was an undergrad, that technology had been translated essentially for making people walk, who couldn't walk again.

00:03:00: And then our focus became, how can we help workers?

00:03:04: Because workers get hurt every single day, every single day.

00:03:09: spot in the world, like it was kind of a more proactive idea behind helping people with this technology.

00:03:15: Well,

00:03:16: I could have imagined, you know, in the culture of these days, naturally robotics is there.

00:03:22: So I could have imagined that you would just focus on,

00:03:26: you know,

00:03:27: Android robots walking around.

00:03:30: What brought you really into this world where you have a different interconnection between humans and technology?

00:03:36: That's a great question.

00:03:37: So I think at its core, you know, people think about robots and they think they can do anything.

00:03:45: But there's so much of our world that is uncontrolled and constantly changing.

00:03:52: And it's not just that, like, there are robots in industry.

00:03:57: don't get me wrong, right?

00:03:58: In very, very controlled environments, car manufacturing, there are a lot of robots.

00:04:04: But there are also places where you're building a ship, where you're building a house, where things are constantly changing.

00:04:11: And maybe AI will get us closer to there, but then you also have to make the robots that work in there.

00:04:17: And in those places, I think right now, today, humans are indispensable.

00:04:22: And we want to make those indispensable humans, you know, Be able to actually be in this treat them like they're indispensable like you know that they deserve to go home and play with their kids.

00:04:35: So that was kind of the the motivation there.

00:04:39: I mean this is almost philosophical.

00:04:41: So are we speaking of a period in time where this sort of exoskeletons is still?

00:04:48: for humans, but in, I don't know, twenty, thirty

00:04:51: years,

00:04:52: people will say, okay, we don't need the human part.

00:04:54: The robots will take over.

00:04:56: I think that that can definitely happen.

00:04:59: And in some ways, you know, so in ergonomics, there is something called like the hierarchy of needs.

00:05:05: And the idea is, is that if a person is doing some work where they're at danger or they can get hurt, you want the first.

00:05:13: the first line of action is to design it out.

00:05:16: Now, in theory, a robot, putting a robot in the spot is designing it out.

00:05:20: And so, yes, we want people to be ultimately incredibly safe.

00:05:25: But so industrial workspaces, you know, maybe there is some time frame to it, but there is a future to all sorts of other exoskeletons.

00:05:36: And, you know, But what that time frame also is for industrial exoskeleton, who knows?

00:05:43: It's probably a very long time before every single job in the world is replaced by robots.

00:05:49: And there's a lot of reasons for that that we can kind of get into.

00:05:53: One thing that really comes into my mind is like a topic that is really important, that we're constantly thinking about is heat.

00:06:00: As the world's getting hotter, keeping workers cooler is really important.

00:06:04: And sometimes companies have a hard time.

00:06:07: doing that for their workers, you know, keeping them hydrated.

00:06:11: Robots have the exact same problem, but it's a lot worse.

00:06:14: You have to keep your entire facility really, really cold so that the robots don't overheat.

00:06:21: And so, like, it becomes this thing where people think that, you know, oh, you just put a robot in and replace a person, but it's not true.

00:06:29: There's a lot of infrastructure and things that have to go around it.

00:06:32: And besides heat, I believe, still we humans are very flexible.

00:06:38: We can cope with very different situations.

00:06:40: So we have a flexibility that today's robots at least do not have.

00:06:47: Now, if we get into the world, we were speaking about people doing things which hurt And sometimes we are not aware of it.

00:06:59: At least the layman is not aware of it.

00:07:02: Let me take, I don't know, logistics or manufacturing people carrying, for example, boxes all day long.

00:07:11: They suddenly end up with a back problem.

00:07:13: And this is naturally, yeah.

00:07:16: They can't work anymore.

00:07:17: So there is a serious problem, not only with the people, but also from an economic perspective.

00:07:24: There is a problem.

00:07:25: What are the best incentives?

00:07:28: you have to say, OK, we want to focus on this?

00:07:31: Or

00:07:32: I don't know, is it more shoulders?

00:07:33: Is it working up or yeah?

00:07:37: So the number one workplace injury in.

00:07:43: across the world in all industries is a back injury.

00:07:46: Number two is shoulder.

00:07:48: The other thing that may, even though shoulder is number two, if you look at the data, a shoulder injury, when you go to get surgery for that injury, puts a person out of work for the longest time of any other joint.

00:08:03: And so that was actually a big part of how we decided to go into these two joints to begin with.

00:08:11: There's also legs, essentially knee injuries.

00:08:17: What we kind of noticed, we actually originally had created a knee exoskeleton, but the problem with that technology is that there is a huge balance component to it.

00:08:29: It's like riding a bike.

00:08:30: Once you get to it, it's really easy.

00:08:32: But then usually when people are working, you know, they might be in precarious situations.

00:08:38: Do you want them to be riding a bike?

00:08:40: And so that's why our focus kind of went back to just shoulders at back.

00:08:45: Okay, let's.

00:08:46: Perhaps start with, well, the back.

00:08:50: I mean, you have the human engineering and robotics lab in Berkeley.

00:08:54: And before you help a person, you have to understand the biomechanics.

00:08:59: So what is the reason why the back gets strained?

00:09:03: Why after some time people have a problem?

00:09:07: Did that start that way?

00:09:08: Yeah, I mean, that is the fundamental of it, right?

00:09:12: In order to make an effective exoskeleton, we have to understand what is causing the injury, right?

00:09:20: And the fact of the matter is you don't have to be lifting a box.

00:09:24: If you're just bending over, what happens is that the mechanics of it is that you have a spine.

00:09:32: And then you have muscles behind those spines that are in tension.

00:09:37: And so when you are bending over, these muscles are actually in tension and they're pulling you back.

00:09:45: And what that does is it creates a compressive load between your vertebrae.

00:09:51: And that is how people get hurt.

00:09:54: And so you can imagine that, you know, if I'm just like stooping over, if I'm just bending, I'm not lifting a box.

00:10:00: My muscles are still pulling me up.

00:10:03: That is creating that compression load.

00:10:06: And now it just gets worse and worse, the heavier of a box that you pick up.

00:10:10: So even if you have, you know, with all that, I mean, you started studying exactly these mechanisms.

00:10:19: With yourself, did you see that suddenly Minerva starts

00:10:25: lifting

00:10:25: things in a different way here in Germany?

00:10:27: We say don't lift it from the back but through the knees or with the legs.

00:10:34: So that's a great question.

00:10:36: So that was actually a very important part to us because what we don't want to do is teach people bad posture.

00:10:42: So our products are actually designed very specifically so that if you have good posture, it is invisible to you.

00:10:51: The idea is that we don't want it to get in your way, but it's only when, you know, people, what happens is people get tired and they forget their training and then they get into a bad posture.

00:11:01: And that's when the exoskeleton essentially starts to support you.

00:11:05: I'll give you an example.

00:11:06: I went to a, facility.

00:11:09: It was actually a meat packing plant.

00:11:10: It was the logistics area of the meat packing plant.

00:11:12: And we asked this lady if she would mind wearing the exoskeleton and she told me, oh, I have had a back problem.

00:11:19: So I know I have really good posture and this device is not going to help me.

00:11:24: And so we're like, okay, so just, just try it and give us feedback.

00:11:27: And we put it on her.

00:11:28: And, um, afterwards she came to us and she was like, you know what, uh, I realized how bad my posture is after I use this because it was helping me so much.

00:11:39: while I was doing my job.

00:11:40: It's because even, you know, you may think you're actually doing good posture, but you just forget sometimes.

00:11:46: It's like such a, it's so easy to fall into that habit.

00:11:50: So in other words, an exoskeleton is a bit like, well, a teacher, a gym trainer who tells you permanently, well, keep your shoulders in the back and, you know, sit upright.

00:12:05: My mother always said, sit upright, you know.

00:12:08: Actually, I never thought of it that way.

00:12:10: But yeah, I think you can definitely think of it that way.

00:12:13: You sort of have differences between passive and powered exoskeletons.

00:12:19: Now, let's start with the passive ones.

00:12:21: So no battery,

00:12:22: no motors.

00:12:24: This is just sort of, yeah.

00:12:26: reminding you of a good position or is there more to it?

00:12:30: No, I mean, it's not just reminding you of a good position, but it also has a spring in it that essentially helps.

00:12:41: So think of it this way.

00:12:43: My body has to react to gravity, right?

00:12:46: So what we do essentially is we store the energy due to gravity from your torso as you're bending down.

00:12:54: So because and it's going into a spring.

00:12:56: And because of that, when you're coming up, that spring actually gives it back to you.

00:13:01: So we're not just so.

00:13:02: we are pushing you, but we're not completely stopping you from, you know, bending down.

00:13:07: We're giving you that flexibility.

00:13:09: But then we're utilizing that flexibility and naturally, you know, the effect of gravity to give you some energy back.

00:13:17: And that's kind of the real goal of the current passive exoskeleton technology.

00:13:23: It's not that it's just purely posture control.

00:13:25: There are methods where you can do pure posture control.

00:13:29: But the exoskeleton itself actually does give you a little bit back so that you can feel better about lifting this piece up.

00:13:36: Now, I can imagine Minerva, both of us lifting boxes.

00:13:40: Your body is different from mine.

00:13:44: So it's very individual.

00:13:46: Do you sort of fit the exoskeleton to say, OK, this works for Ranga, this works for Minerva, or is it more getting all the people into a standard movement pattern, which is the best?

00:14:01: The big difference between you and me is likely size.

00:14:04: So all the exoskeletons that we try to develop at Sudax is essentially one-size-fit-all.

00:14:11: And we do that by looking at the anatomical sizes of people and then adjusting it to that.

00:14:17: So we can adjust for depth, we can adjust for height, we can adjust for width, we can adjust for thigh length.

00:14:25: So we do those adjustments.

00:14:26: But what we don't want to do is tell somebody, do this in a different way.

00:14:32: And that kind of goes to like a very fundamental thing that we learned early on, which is we don't want to get in people's way.

00:14:40: We don't want to, we want them to listen to the ergonomist and do the postures the ergonomist is talking about.

00:14:47: And when they're doing those things or when they're doing other jobs, we want to try to not, the most important thing is for us to not to get in their way at all.

00:14:55: Because then they feel like, why am I wearing this thing that is getting in my way?

00:15:01: Because some of it is an exoskeleton is a preventative measure.

00:15:05: And so some people don't appreciate that.

00:15:08: The fact that, you know, it's the people who don't like to wear helmets.

00:15:12: And so we have to make sure that this technology is so easy to use and so intuitive.

00:15:19: Like the onus is on us as engineers to make it intuitive so that you can wear it and I can wear it and we just adjust for the size to, you know, connect our joints to the XO and then the XO works.

00:15:32: Tell me your first experience, I mean, somewhere down the line, I suppose, Minerva, you also sort of put on your first exoskeleton.

00:15:42: I don't know when that was, but describe that moment.

00:15:47: What happened?

00:15:48: I can't remember the exact moment.

00:15:50: Maybe it's because I've worn so many exoskeleton since then.

00:15:55: I know that there is a picture, like there's a very specific picture of me and the other graduate school co-founders at Sudex, where I am wearing a full exoskeleton.

00:16:07: I mean, I say full.

00:16:08: I mean, it was legs connected to a back and basically like a, like a, camera arm.

00:16:17: I don't know if you're familiar with like a like a steady cam arm, like all connected and then me squatting just like I'm sitting in a chair and not having any problem with it.

00:16:27: And so

00:16:28: you looked a bit like a terminator, you know, with all that on.

00:16:32: Well, but that's the thing.

00:16:34: I didn't look like a terminator, but I was very comfortable and my friends were sitting on chairs and I was just sitting there and it was effortless.

00:16:43: And that I think was you know, it's like we're making something really cool.

00:16:51: What did you think when you put off the exoskeleton?

00:16:54: I mean you are feeling comfortable with the exoskeleton and then well with workers also after work they have to put it off.

00:17:04: Then you feel again sort of the human being who is vulnerable, who is weak, who is perhaps in the wrong posture.

00:17:13: I wouldn't say so.

00:17:14: I think that the So there's actually a demo that I like to do where I turn the XO on, I have somebody pick up a weight and then I have them turn it off and then I have them do it again.

00:17:26: And when you do that because you use the XO, it gives you a very clear idea of where the XO was helping you because you'll be like, oh, because before I actually wasn't using this.

00:17:37: And the second time you tried to do it, I was also expecting to not use it, but I did.

00:17:41: And then you kind of notice it,

00:17:44: but

00:17:45: I'm going to be a hundred percent honest.

00:17:47: When you take the XO off, you feel a little bit of relief because there's a little bit of weight taken off and it's less hot.

00:17:59: And those are like fundamental things with exoskeletons that we're constantly striving to make better.

00:18:04: It's like make them lighter, make them less hot.

00:18:07: I think we are probably some of the best that do that.

00:18:10: But it's still, it's like if you're working and you're getting hot and I give you more clothes to wear, you're gonna get a little bit hotter.

00:18:18: It's essentially the equivalent of that.

00:18:20: But that happens, but I don't think people feel weaker.

00:18:24: I've never heard anybody say they feel weaker.

00:18:27: There was an interesting article in the Berliner Morgenpost, which is a German newspaper in May this year.

00:18:34: And the title was how I briefly became a robot or at least thought it.

00:18:41: So I asked myself, yeah, if you put on especially a powered exoskeleton, well, you have more power, you have more endurance.

00:18:51: So somehow, yeah, in your psychology, You are stronger, isn't it?

00:18:58: Yeah.

00:18:58: I mean, I think that you could definitely, that effect could happen.

00:19:02: And I think that just goes into education, right?

00:19:05: The, one of the first things that we have to tell a lot of workers is that these exoskeletons, they're not making you Iron Man.

00:19:13: Like we, we have-

00:19:14: Unfortunately.

00:19:17: One day, one day we'll get there.

00:19:18: But yeah, these exoskeletons are not making you Iron Man.

00:19:21: We don't want them to do more than what they were doing before.

00:19:26: But yes, our job is to remove the strain in their body.

00:19:30: That's the most important thing to us.

00:19:32: And I think that, you know, people, as long as they kind of continue to use it at work, and at work is where they are straining their body the most, I think that when you, you know, when you, when you take the exo off and you go home, maybe when you, you know, lift up your baby, you're like, I wish I had an exo for that.

00:19:52: But, you know, there's, I don't know if you would necessarily feel, I don't think you would feel weak.

00:20:00: I think you would still be like, oh, I wish I had that to help me out.

00:20:04: But we speak about, you know, there's this lovely term muscle memory.

00:20:08: So if you put on an exoskeleton, I just imagine, you know, I'm working at a company and you have your exoskeletons everywhere with Toyota, with Deutsche Bahn, with Boeing, with Hermes and so on.

00:20:21: So a huge amount of people are IKEA.

00:20:25: And now if you wear that for eight hours your muscle memory is a different muscle memory from when you put it off.

00:20:35: So do you have sort of two personalities, me with the exoskeleton as compared to without?

00:20:43: So there's a couple of different pieces to that.

00:20:45: So the way I like to think about exoskeletons is what we're doing is that we're taking the load off of what is typically like smaller muscle groups that are kind of going across like very temperamental body joints and we're moving them to bigger muscle groups, which can take more load.

00:21:03: So that's one thing that we're doing, right?

00:21:06: The other thing, the other way to think about it is the amount of exercise you're kind of doing.

00:21:11: Like if you think about work is exercise, right?

00:21:14: Because in the end, like, you know, lifting up a box is exercise.

00:21:20: And what we're doing is that you know, you can go to the gym and you can lift a really heavy weight or you could do a lot of reps of a smaller weight.

00:21:29: And the amount your muscle is being worked out is essentially the same.

00:21:33: And that's kind of what we think of the exoskeleton is doing.

00:21:37: Like it's kind of reducing the total weight.

00:21:39: We're not going down to zero.

00:21:41: We're just offsetting it so that you can actually do more, but it's with a lighter weight.

00:21:48: That is actually, you know, some longer like pieces of study done by like you bring up Toyota in like to twenty eighteen.

00:21:56: I think they presented this when they were first doing their exoskeleton.

00:22:00: you know do exos work trial where they mandated exoskeletons across like a job at their facility and they checked how much strength people had to kind of push up at the beginning of the job.

00:22:13: and then they kind of kept measuring that for I want to say six weeks or something.

00:22:19: And then they found that, you know what, nothing changed.

00:22:25: The amount they could do before they ever tried an exoskeleton and the amount after using an exoskeleton for eight hours a day was pretty much like the same in the noise.

00:22:36: And so for me, you know, it's just what we're doing is we're shifting your exercise.

00:22:43: We're shifting how your body is kind of doing the same activity and moving it from an unhealthy range to a healthy range.

00:22:50: And there, let's speak about studies.

00:22:53: There's one study which was conducted by the Department of Orthopedics.

00:22:58: at the University Hospital in Leipzig, here in Germany.

00:23:03: And they focused on the effects of suit exoskeletons.

00:23:07: And I think so.

00:23:08: this is a very important question because at the end we want to see pain reduction.

00:23:15: We want to see less people who suddenly have a back problem and they cannot work.

00:23:22: we want to see more comfort and endurance during your work.

00:23:27: You have followed up all these studies.

00:23:29: What is the bottom line?

00:23:31: So the honest answer is that there is not enough long-term studies, right?

00:23:39: That is something that we kind of critically need.

00:23:43: And the problem, unfortunately, is that the only people who can realistically do a long-term study our companies.

00:23:49: So we need companies to agree to that.

00:23:53: And oftentimes they don't.

00:23:55: The US automotive sector is actually probably the furthest ahead in all of these.

00:24:01: And I think I can tell you something from what they have presented and their experiences on the topic.

00:24:08: Basically exoskeletons help.

00:24:10: That is a presentation by Toyota.

00:24:13: I think that they started giving in like, twenty nineteen.

00:24:17: I remember this because this was one of the last presentations I went to before COVID.

00:24:22: And they were talking about how, so they have a very meticulous process where they can figure out who is most likely to get a shoulder injury.

00:24:32: And they said that, okay, so, you know, there are some people who are kind of borderline, but then there are some people who, oh, this job can definitely use an exoskeleton.

00:24:41: And they mandated for that job.

00:24:43: And then over.

00:24:44: course of a few years, they found that there were no injuries in those jobs where the shoulder exoskeleton was, you know, like they essentially gave that.

00:24:54: And so that is in a way proof.

00:24:57: But there's a lot of caveats to it too, which is it's like they they really made sure that that job fitted shoulder exoskeletons really well.

00:25:06: And the amount of risk that, you know, the shoulder was in, was enough to mandate it.

00:25:12: And so there's always this question of, you know, do you mandate an exoskeleton or do you make it optional?

00:25:19: Is it a tool?

00:25:20: Is it a PPE?

00:25:22: And that is, you know, that's still a question we're in the process of answering.

00:25:27: And so So the answer is, I want a hundred percent believe that technology works.

00:25:34: My husband uses it when we garden, I use it when I'm doing something where I'm going to be stooping, when I'm moving, I will wear an exoskeleton.

00:25:43: Even

00:25:44: sweeping.

00:25:44: So if I come to your home in California, I can see Minerva in the garden using an exoskeleton.

00:25:52: For weeding.

00:25:53: I will use it for weeding.

00:25:55: Yes, I wouldn't necessarily use it for sweeping.

00:25:57: And that's the thing, right?

00:25:58: That is a job for the exoskeleton.

00:26:02: And when you use the exoskeleton for the right job, I know it will make your life better.

00:26:08: How about the flexibility?

00:26:10: Because I just imagine, you know, you're working in a company, you have an exoskeleton which is optimal for one specific task.

00:26:20: I have to drill.

00:26:21: up over my head.

00:26:23: I saw these examples at the German aircraft industry and now suddenly you want to do something else.

00:26:32: How flexible are these exoskeletons?

00:26:36: Do they restrict you in the sense that it's optimal for this task but quite bad for something else?

00:26:46: So I would say that trying to make the exoskeleton as flexible is actually an important criteria for us.

00:26:53: And it comes from that back to that idea of it needs to be invisible on you.

00:26:59: We actually had so.

00:27:01: so the like the you know the IX shoulder air and the IX back bolt on, they're actually designed to maximize as much range of motion as possible.

00:27:13: We want to kind of protect you in the, in the plane, in the motion that we do, but we don't want you to, to restrict doing any other way.

00:27:19: There is a video of one of our engineers doing a backflip in a, in a IH shoulder air.

00:27:25: So like, you know, it's kind of the, the, the proof of that, you know, you can do a lot of different postures in it.

00:27:32: Um, But yeah, I mean, there are multiple approaches, though, to exoskeletons, too.

00:27:38: For instance, our IX back air.

00:27:41: So one of the bending over is not the only way that you can kind of get hurt.

00:27:46: Another way is essentially twisting.

00:27:49: So a twist can cause a different type of back injury.

00:27:54: And so the IX back air frame is actually designed to prevent you from twisting.

00:28:01: But, you know, we also find people say that, ah, that's too restrictive.

00:28:05: We have to be able to twist.

00:28:07: And so, you know, and that's something, for instance, that the IAX back bolt-on allows you, which is our power device, allows you to do.

00:28:15: So we have to be sensitive to what people need.

00:28:17: And in

00:28:17: your power device, in your power device, I looked up the figures, it weighs about four point eight kilos.

00:28:24: rather light, if you imagine.

00:28:27: it had batteries, it had sensors, motors and so on.

00:28:31: So a weight, I think so, is something very crucial.

00:28:34: People don't want to put on a heavy rucksack,

00:28:36: huh?

00:28:37: Exactly.

00:28:38: Did you visit people working in factories?

00:28:42: I mean, if you see other people putting on an exoskeleton, what is their remark?

00:28:49: Must they train?

00:28:50: or yeah, tell us, how does that work?

00:28:54: Well, we have to train them.

00:28:55: So, you know, exoskeletons are fairly new.

00:28:59: And so our job is essentially to train them on how to wear it.

00:29:03: But using it is fairly simple.

00:29:07: And so the core thing is for we want the person to be comfortable when we leave.

00:29:13: And so teaching them the key pieces to how they can be comfortable when we leave is the most important part of that training.

00:29:22: So yeah, and the most important part, just for everybody to know, is to align your biological joint to your exoskeleton joint.

00:29:30: If you do that, you will have less chafing, you will have less rubbing, and the exoskeleton will be the most comfortable way.

00:29:39: Which means they are very personal.

00:29:40: So my exoskeleton, I don't know, at IKEA, if I would work there, I would hang it up after work, and this is my exoskeleton.

00:29:50: And next day I put that one on again.

00:29:53: So every worker has his personalized model.

00:29:56: or is it so flexible that worker A can slip into the exoskeleton of worker B?

00:30:02: So my favorite companies are the ones where they give each worker their own exoskeleton because essentially it removes the possibility that somebody is wearing a wrong size or fitted exoskeleton.

00:30:18: But like I said, you know, the difference between you and me wearing it is I changed the frame.

00:30:23: So it's not hard to change the frame to give the same exoskeleton to people.

00:30:27: You just need a trained person to be able to do that.

00:30:30: And when I say trained, like it's easy to do.

00:30:33: It's just making sure that it is fit correctly to this other person's body.

00:30:37: Yeah, well, we see similar things also in sports.

00:30:40: I mean, I love to ski.

00:30:42: So you also have to look that things fit and the length of your ski

00:30:47: stick and so

00:30:48: on.

00:30:48: So we are used in a certain way to exoskeletons.

00:30:53: I mean, if I look at some sports in the US baseball, you know, where

00:30:58: people

00:30:59: wear a lot of gear and they look sort of very strong.

00:31:03: But in sports, you don't use exoskeletons.

00:31:06: skeletons.

00:31:08: or is that also now a new trend to come?

00:31:12: I think it will be a new trend.

00:31:14: Yeah, like, um, you know, I don't think I've ever seen one in a professional sport yet, but I can see that happening.

00:31:22: I know that there's a, there are people who are trying to enter what we call the recreational space for hiking and trail running.

00:31:30: I think is a sport that people are trying to make

00:31:32: a mountain climb being perhaps, you know?

00:31:34: Uh, so there is a universe, but let's once you go, uh, once again, go back to, well, the.

00:31:42: difference between passive and power.

00:31:44: because, well, passive is something you put on.

00:31:49: We understood what it does and the benefits.

00:31:53: But now suddenly you add power.

00:31:56: So what exactly is that?

00:31:58: an actor?

00:31:59: So suddenly I can lift much more.

00:32:02: or how is that power support?

00:32:05: So the way I like to explain power support is I'm not trying to give you more power.

00:32:11: I'm trying to give you smart power.

00:32:13: I'm trying to give you comfortable power.

00:32:16: So some of the feedback that we got on the passive devices is that you're charging this spring when you're going down.

00:32:23: And when you're charging the spring, when you're going down, it can be kind of uncomfortable potentially to some people because it's like pushing down on you.

00:32:31: And sometimes people are pushing down on you very quickly.

00:32:33: And there is no difference between for the exoskeleton between me going and picking up a box that's heavy versus me picking up a pin on the ground.

00:32:43: And that's where, for me, powered exoskeletons come in.

00:32:46: We can make exoskeletons now smarter.

00:32:50: And because we can make them smarter, They can put less power into you when you're going down.

00:32:55: They can still support you, but they can give you a lot more coming up.

00:32:59: And by doing that, we can make it more comfortable for you to feel more support and we can still give you the same support going down.

00:33:07: So it's this whole thing.

00:33:09: And you know, if you're going down to pick up a pen, we can tell.

00:33:13: You're going down to pick up a pen where it says, oh, I'm slowly going down with a box.

00:33:17: And so for me, that's the most important thing that the computer gives this device.

00:33:25: I believe when we look at the profile of the users, very often we think of workers in factories, in logistics, but I read even surgeons.

00:33:38: put on exoskeletons because it seems I'm not a surgeon that this also causes back problems and this is an association which was not very trivial for me to just think of.

00:33:50: oh a surgeon even might put on an exoskeleton.

00:33:54: Yeah there's actually been a few studies done on trying to evaluate use of that because if you're familiar with laparoscopic surgery oftentimes there's basically an a surgeon doing exactly doing that.

00:34:10: And so in fact, actually in a few like maybe in a week or so, I'm going to a place where people do surgery to kind of show exoskeleton just to increase awareness of the technology.

00:34:23: And it's because, you know, doctors, they put their body under a lot of strain.

00:34:28: dentists also.

00:34:30: And so, you know, it's our, I think that we need to make technologies to keep people like that in their work for longer because an excellent doctor might actually not be able to work their entire life because they just start hurting their shoulder, they start hurting their back.

00:34:50: Well, we are living in a society where people grow older, so you as a young woman No problem working in the garden, me as a grandfather.

00:35:01: Sometimes it gets difficult to even lift up your grandchildren.

00:35:06: So will exoskeletons become more and more relevant as our societies grow older and there are certain tasks where right now people cannot continue, but perhaps with the help of exoskeletons we could prolong the working phase in certain jobs.

00:35:25: I believe so.

00:35:27: I actually think that, you know, that is where the technology probably will and is heading.

00:35:32: I think the key is for us to make people aware of exoskeletons, because I think, you know, I don't think if I gave this to like my grandmother, that she would necessarily be like, I'm wearing that.

00:35:46: But, you know, maybe my mom's generation or something between the my mom and my generation, they would be more accepting of the technology and overall for us to just make the technology better.

00:35:58: And I think once we get there, I absolutely see that walking is such an important part of longevity and a healthy life and we want to be able to help people with that.

00:36:10: Well, and what I can imagine, I mean, if you look at elder people, they already use a lot of tools, you know, to walk wheelchairs, sticks and so on.

00:36:22: So why not an exoskeleton?

00:36:24: Yeah.

00:36:26: Let's talk a bit about AI, because we've seen the difference between powered assistance versus non-power.

00:36:35: But now Incomes intelligence, so sensors.

00:36:42: Open us the room of AI in the field of exoskeletons.

00:36:47: I was talking about how powered exoskeletons are smart.

00:36:51: We want to be able to give you smart power, and I think AI just takes that to the next level.

00:36:57: The key between exoskeleton that people will accept and not is that It helps me when I need it, and it's invisible when I don't.

00:37:06: And that is actually the hardest challenge of exoskeletons.

00:37:09: It's like, how do you know what the person is doing?

00:37:13: You have to put a lot of sensors in there.

00:37:16: What can we do as roboticists, essentially, to get that to happen?

00:37:21: And I think AI potentially, you know, you can collect enough data where we can make that happen.

00:37:29: We can make these invisible exos, smarter exos.

00:37:32: We can also make, you know, exoskeletonics assistance, right?

00:37:36: Where I was telling you, you have to have a trained person who is, you know, fitting this exo to you.

00:37:41: Who knows?

00:37:43: AI can help us with that.

00:37:45: Like, you know, it's a, right now I can look at a picture and I can say, okay, you need to change this, this and this.

00:37:50: I want the AI to do that because I think that an AI can absolutely figure that out.

00:37:56: It doesn't have to be me as a human expert.

00:37:59: And I think all of that will make it... an acceptable technology.

00:38:02: Could it be that one day my intelligent exoskeleton would even sort of tell me exactly what I have to change in my movement.

00:38:13: So we have a lot of people nowadays, you know, going to physiotherapists because they have a problem.

00:38:21: They get an exercise.

00:38:22: They have to train this in the future.

00:38:25: You know, the exoskeleton knows exactly how you move.

00:38:30: So this could be a very valuable input, isn't it?

00:38:34: Absolutely.

00:38:35: It's really funny that you're bringing that up because currently Sudax is developing something called the Ergo XP in Europe, which essentially it is a module that you wear and it sees what kind of postures workers are doing.

00:38:52: And at the end of the day, it sends them exercises and things that they can do essentially to enhance the muscles.

00:39:02: It's essentially like a workout schedule.

00:39:04: And one hundred percent, the exoskeleton can also do that.

00:39:10: And with the AI, I think we can really, really tailor it.

00:39:14: to that person.

00:39:16: But yeah, no, we're already doing that.

00:39:18: And I think it's just going to be enhanced with the AI.

00:39:21: So in other words, even if you have a problem, a back problem, you put on an exoskeleton and the exoskeleton might, well, find out that this movement is wrong or you're wearing the wrong shoes or I don't know, you know, some, some details.

00:39:37: So it could be really almost there.

00:39:40: butic or diagnostic tool also.

00:39:42: Yeah, I mean you could say that you could figure out that oh this person is maybe using this leg more than the other leg or flexing this joint more than this other joint and then you know provide some kind of physical therapy advice on.

00:39:56: you know you need to stretch this leg out more or you need to strengthen these muscles out more.

00:40:00: You said you were a skier.

00:40:02: I know I Like.

00:40:04: two years ago, I broke my knee skiing.

00:40:06: So I have one knee, which is definitely weaker than the other knee.

00:40:09: And, you know, but that will happen to people.

00:40:12: And so physical therapy is such an important part of that.

00:40:16: And I think the exoskeleton can give you feedback on that.

00:40:19: Now, naturally, at least here in Germany, we are very sensitive about data because basically even just imagine I'm a worker at a company and I use an exoskeleton generating a lot of data.

00:40:33: Naturally, my boss could monitor exactly, well, how is he doing, when is he pausing and so on.

00:40:41: So, their privacy, I think so, could be an issue in the future.

00:40:47: So one of the things that we are really trying to do to address that same issue is anonymization.

00:40:54: I actually spent a lot of time in my work trying to kind of figure out how we can get workers data.

00:41:02: while it being fully anonymized.

00:41:05: And we have a few strategies that we've discussed about how to do that.

00:41:09: But essentially that is kind of our core approach is to ensure that, you know, we're not going to give one exoskeleton to one facility.

00:41:19: It's going to be like a group of exoskeletons.

00:41:22: And we want the workers to have their data, but we don't necessarily want other people to have individual data.

00:41:32: Now, let's look at the sectors.

00:41:34: I mean, we spoke about construction logistics.

00:41:38: We spoke about healthcare, well, the doctors.

00:41:42: But do you see a future where there are other sectors entering, where suddenly we have jobs, you know, like the desk worker.

00:41:52: I am a desk worker.

00:41:53: I'm, you know, sitting in front of a computer.

00:41:56: many hours a day, would I also, somewhere in the future, put on an exoskeleton or other applications, other jobs?

00:42:08: So that's a good question.

00:42:09: I wouldn't say it would necessarily be an exoskeleton.

00:42:14: But, and mostly because of the definition of the exoskeleton in terms of like a mechanical suit, but I didn't definitely see a wearable being used by desk workers that is either giving them feedback on their posture or helping them out with you know, providing stimulus or something to reduce inflammation in a specific, you know, body posture or just like a reminder to like, you know, it's your mom.

00:42:42: Maybe it's an audio mom telling you to sit up straight.

00:42:48: But sometimes it could be that, you know, in some in Asia.

00:42:55: You get a massage, for example, a shoulder massage, which helps a lot.

00:43:03: You feel more relaxed.

00:43:04: Could that be an application that, you know, one day, well, you have these very nice exoskeletons, which, you know, give you a massage in between.

00:43:15: You should patent that.

00:43:16: Therefore, relax you.

00:43:18: You should patent that.

00:43:19: Yeah.

00:43:19: I mean, why not?

00:43:20: I think the key is just making, like I said, right?

00:43:23: It's all about making it lighter and making it less obstructive.

00:43:27: And if we can do that, why not?

00:43:32: I can definitely see that as a product, if you will, and easy to put on thing.

00:43:40: I know that there are these massagers where you wrap them around you and you put your hand in and you press down and then it just does your shoulders.

00:43:47: But yeah, could that be integrated into your clothing?

00:43:51: or your work chair.

00:43:51: Yeah,

00:43:52: or in an exoskeleton, you know, if he works on top and then he has a policy, he can just press a button and say, okay, give me a small massage, something like that.

00:44:01: I think that that actually, that is a great idea.

00:44:04: I mean, but there's a lot of things that actually workers want in exoskeletons as accessories.

00:44:10: I have heard that one before.

00:44:13: Yes, cup holders, you know, flashlights.

00:44:16: And so, but yes, that I have definitely heard for it.

00:44:20: exoskeletons in workers.

00:44:21: But yeah, I think that there are so many approaches that you could take for a desk worker.

00:44:26: What I think is so important is we should speak a bit about the myths.

00:44:31: Why?

00:44:33: I mean, I told you I have grandchildren and they have, you know, these small toys and they look like robots.

00:44:40: This is sort of, you know, the exoskeleton of the future, this sort of fusion between, I don't know, a strong machine and the human, which is quite different from what we spoke about.

00:44:52: But what are the biggest myths?

00:44:54: where people running and say, oh no, exoskeleton and they have a total misunderstanding?

00:45:01: Yeah, no, that's a great question.

00:45:03: There are two camps.

00:45:05: So there's camp number one, which is, oh, it's going to make me Iron Man.

00:45:12: And it's going to make me lift a lot of weight.

00:45:15: And, you know, I'm going to be super strong.

00:45:18: And that is not true about the exoskeleton.

00:45:20: We're trying to make you healthier.

00:45:22: We're not trying to make you... like that much stronger.

00:45:26: And health is kind of the key output that we want from this technology at this time.

00:45:33: The other camp is that, you know, oh, I don't want to take where this goes.

00:45:38: It's going to take my job.

00:45:40: And no, it's not going to take your job.

00:45:42: It's going to keep you at your job longer.

00:45:45: For longer.

00:45:46: Exactly.

00:45:47: And like, for some reason, just thinking of this as a robot makes people kind of question that.

00:45:53: And so like, We spend a lot of time actually in our process trying to educate workers on those facts.

00:46:02: It's not trying to make you stronger.

00:46:03: It's not trying to replace you.

00:46:05: But I can imagine this is almost an ethical decision you have to take, because I could also figure that there are some companies that say, hey, Minerva, we have workers, they always only can lift one box, give us an exoskeleton so that they can lift three, they are more productive.

00:46:27: So is there some sort of, well, red line where you say, we want to focus on the health of a person and not on a sort of superhuman efficiency in the sense that now suddenly you have super power and you can lift ten boxes instead of two.

00:46:50: So for us, we are trying to provide the most comfortable amount of forces and torques onto a person that are safe to put on them.

00:47:00: That's kind of our, like, we want to be, that's what our goal is.

00:47:05: I would say that, you know, I want workers to follow.

00:47:11: Do you know what OSHA is?

00:47:13: Essentially, the OSHA's rules.

00:47:15: At some point, OSHA said, when you have a box that is this heavy, you need two people to lift it.

00:47:22: I'm not going to change that.

00:47:24: Now, over the course of ten years, twenty years, we see that exoskeletons are making it easier.

00:47:32: And OSHA decides to adopt different rules than fine.

00:47:37: But our job is just to make that one person healthier and safer.

00:47:44: We never spoke about farmers during my childhood.

00:47:48: I lived on the country and I remember digging for potatoes.

00:47:53: I can tell you I would have loved to put on such an exoskeleton.

00:47:58: So this was a very strenuous work and you can see many other applications within farming, which is different from big companies like Toyota or Ikea.

00:48:13: Is there also there is some interest to say, oh, yes, we could use it?

00:48:17: A hundred percent.

00:48:18: There's definitely interest.

00:48:20: I think the biggest problem with farming is that we don't have the scale yet to make the technology so accessible that it is accessible to them at that price point.

00:48:31: Because farming, actually, I think that we need to make it much, much.

00:48:36: cheaper to actually work in that industry.

00:48:38: But I think some of the original money that we got was because of strawberry workers in California.

00:48:44: Because strawberry picking is very taxing.

00:48:48: Everything is low to the ground.

00:48:50: But I actually think that there is a need.

00:48:54: A lot of research is done for farming communities.

00:48:59: But yeah, I think we have to, as an industry, try to get that scale going so that we can drop the cost down.

00:49:06: Now, you're right now, naturally, in the development of new models, new exoskeletons.

00:49:15: What is your focus?

00:49:17: I mean, are you allowed to talk a bit about the future?

00:49:22: Maybe only in broad strokes.

00:49:24: OK.

00:49:25: Yeah,

00:49:26: I mean, I think that the I think that the big goal of Sudex today is kind of more to think about health in general.

00:49:38: And not just in the format of an exoskeleton, but also, you know, I mentioned the Ergo XP.

00:49:44: It's like a smart variable that can give you, keep you at work longer, but not like actually working at longer, but like over the years so that you don't get injured at work.

00:49:55: Like, you know, something simpler than an exoskeleton.

00:49:58: Can we actually do some kind of health analytics?

00:50:03: So the goal is to kind of expand into all the ways in which we can help workers, not just kind of limiting ourselves into the field of exoskeletons.

00:50:14: And then, of course, within the field of exoskeletons to grow bigger, but then I can't talk to you about

00:50:20: that too much.

00:50:21: And actually the massage idea.

00:50:23: I know, if that shows up.

00:50:25: Yeah,

00:50:26: exactly.

00:50:27: Well, what was the difference?

00:50:29: I mean, shoot X is a startup.

00:50:31: Huh?

00:50:32: So it started from university and this sort of step from, well, the lab into a product is difficult.

00:50:41: What are the biggest challenges?

00:50:43: Oh, the biggest challenge is making the product.

00:50:46: What people believe is when what you are as a graduate student, thinking what a product is, is very different than what an actual product is.

00:50:55: You know, we And I had the privilege of seeing that firsthand, so I think I have a very good idea.

00:51:02: And it's easy to make one prototype or easy to make two prototypes, but it's really difficult to make something that is consistent, that our work or our manufacturing team can essentially build consistently so that they build a hundred and a hundred of them are the exact same.

00:51:25: even bigger than that is that this has to go out to a person.

00:51:29: You're not seeing what they're doing and you have to make sure it doesn't break.

00:51:34: So you have to plan for how they're going to use it, what are the worst case scenarios, test to that, and then make sure it doesn't break and then still going to break because they're going to do something you didn't think about.

00:51:48: Then how are you going to respond to that?

00:51:50: All of that goes into the product aspect of it.

00:51:54: And I think that we have gotten very good at addressing those things at this point.

00:51:58: Let me, we are ending slowly, but I would like to sort of take a look into the future.

00:52:05: Just imagine Minerva.

00:52:07: in ten years, we do a similar podcast.

00:52:13: What has changed in the world of these exoskeletons?

00:52:17: We see more of them, I suppose.

00:52:19: Yeah, I think you'd see more of them.

00:52:21: I think you'd see more of them with AI integrated into them.

00:52:26: I want to say, well, actually, maybe I take that back.

00:52:30: I think you see less of them because they're better and they're more invisible on you, right?

00:52:35: We figured out how to make them lighter.

00:52:38: We figured out how to make them less hot.

00:52:41: We've integrated cooling technologies into them.

00:52:45: And we've made essentially a technology that people want to wear.

00:52:49: So they're there.

00:52:50: Like, you know, maybe my mom is wearing it, maybe I'm wearing it, maybe you're wearing it.

00:52:56: And people just don't notice because it's everywhere.

00:53:01: And we will see.

00:53:03: Perhaps also in different areas, so not only in manufacturing or with surgeons, but also perhaps, I don't know, in farming,

00:53:12: in

00:53:12: leisure, in people working in the garden.

00:53:15: You are very special, carrying an exoskeleton within the garden, but by then this could become normal.

00:53:22: So the exoskeleton, this fusion between the human and technology could be something which... Yeah, it could be very normal in ten, twenty years from now.

00:53:34: Absolutely.

00:53:35: Well, I think so.

00:53:38: It's very fascinating.

00:53:40: And many people who sort of heard this podcast should realize that your work could lead to the fact that they could work longer because they don't have the back pain.

00:53:54: drop out of a job because, well, physically, they did something wrong.

00:53:59: And I'm very curious because Minerva, I will really follow up if this massage sort of exoskeleton is going to come out.

00:54:12: Anything, a message you have at the end?

00:54:17: No, I mean, I'm excited for what the future brings in this field.

00:54:21: And so I hope that, you know, I think that this technology can help everybody.

00:54:27: And so I'm looking forward to the day when we can actually accomplish that.

00:54:31: Yes.

00:54:31: And I think the most important minerva, you would agree, perhaps, is there are still too many people out there who do not exactly know the role of exoskeletons, the benefit of exoskeletons.

00:54:45: So in other words, if you heard today's podcast, well, share it with a colleague who cares about safety, about more inclusive workspaces, I think.

00:54:55: So this is important because this is still a bit science fiction, but no, it's already right into our reality, correct?

00:55:02: Yes, absolutely.

00:55:04: They're being used in many workplaces every single day.

00:55:07: Wonderful.

00:55:08: Minerva, thank you so much.

00:55:10: Thank you to our audience and, well, I just can't get rid of that picture, Minerva, seeing you in the garden with an exoskeleton.

00:55:22: Thank you.

00:55:23: Yes, no, thank you for your time.

00:55:24: I really appreciate it.